Parrot worked to death?

wrote in message


Blah, blah, blah.

I 've cut out the nonsense from your post, but will reply to your questions
about preconceived ideas and personal views. Sure I express my personal
views but these have extensive backing in real empirical data i.e.
experiences
I have gathered over a perion of nearly 10 years of being an TAG owner.

My 10 year old TAG (Timneh African Grey) Mbeki whom I have raised
and handfed since 6 weeks old is a cute playful and intelligent little
fellow.
Compared to Alex Mbeki is probalby a great moron as his vocabulary is
only around 6-7 words. I have subjected Mbeki to learning lessons many
times and have always noticed that the bird tires immensely after about
15-20 minutes of mental exercersise -becomes cranky, and wants to leave,
go back to the cage, playtop, or whatever.

Sure, slowly and over time he could be made to endure longer and longer
sessions until he probably would be able to withstand a gruelling 8-12 hour
working/learning day, but I know this would not be without a risk of
negative
long term consequenses.

Mbeki is my pet, and not some ALEX (Avian Learning EXperiment)
therefore I don't "torment" him past the 10-15 minute that he playfully
offers me.

M.J.


> No, you just want to justify your preconceptions and your personal
> views by taking advantage of any problem that arises from any animal
> research.
>
>
>
>
> James F. Mayer
> President
> J F M Electronic Systems, Inc.
> Surge Protection for Access Control
> E-Mail jfma RemoveThis @ix.netcom.com
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> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

HOWEDY M.J.,

"M.J." wrote in message
3046$Sd4.308@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> wrote in message
>> HOWEDY M.J.,
>>
>> On Sep 14, 2:14 am, "M.J." wrote:
>>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>> Have him worked to death by your research? > 8-12 hours a day,
>>> every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to find out where the
>>> limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder Alex died so young.

Agreed <{}:* ~ ( >

>> Could be, M.J. The scientific evidence well
>> documents that liklihood <{}: ~ ( >
>
>>> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
>> Not likely, M.J. They're SCIENTISTS!:

I find the level of incompetence demonstrated by university
trained behaviorists (several of whom I've CITED right here
on these forums), and professional animal trainers unequaled
by even the most backward mentally retarded imbecile idiots
and malevolent animal and human abusing researchers <{}: ~ ( >

Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:

"Schmidt (1966) surveyed nearly 100 studies of behaviorally
induced DIS-EASE in animals CONFIRMING and EXTENDING
the DATA on PEOPLE. Behaviorally induced DIS-EASES tend
to fall into two groups;

(1) Hysteriform problems, which INCLUDE HYSTERICAL
SEIZURES and FORMS of AGGRESSION as well as
collective panic and epilepsies;

(2) organic modifications, including functional
difficulties and lesions affecting gastro intestinal,
cardio vascular, respiratory, sexual, endocrine, skin,
urinary, and neuro muscular systems."

> If Dr.Irene Pepperberg is not mad she ought to stop,
> and seriously re-think what she's doing. to these birds,
> before another suffers a pre-mature death.

What she ought to do is STOP and RE-THINK her methods of
training. Alex was trained using so called Operant Conditioning,
the clicker training method, which relies on offering and witholding
REWARDS till the critter throws random, unthinking, meaningless
mindless behaviors till the REWARD is released from the human
Skinner Box <{}: ~ ( >

Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for
operant technique simply take the breath
away. Lovas et al (1966) report a standard
contingent reward/punishment procedure
developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys.
After twenty-six days the boys are reported
to have been learning new words with alacrity.
HOWEver, when REWARDS were moved to
a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."

Clicker training INCREASES anXXXIHOWESNESS to
dangerHOWES levels where aggression, seizures and
obsessive compulsive disorders occure <{}: ~ ( >

Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.

Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."

> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that such
> a rigorous curriculum that she's subjecting the birds
> to,

Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:

"It is INTERESTING, and SLIGHTLY HORRIFYING,
to note that the ONLY SCIENTIFIC RELEVANCE
of the standard six hour school day that I have
been able to detect in research is that Sawrey
and Weisz quite by accident found that six hours
on and six hour off of "EXECUTIVE BEHAVIOR"
in monkeys was the ONLY TIME STRUCTURE
that INDUCED DEATH PRODUCING ULCERS."

> must over time be extremely traumatic to the birds
> and in particular their brains."

INDEEDY!:

"All animals learn best through play," -- Konrad Lorenz.

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it
manifests itself in the conditional reflex,
consists of a continual change of these three
fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition
and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

> There is no point in letting another parrot perish
> for the sake of teaching it to count to seven, or eight,
> or some other similar achievement.

Alex's achievements would have been much greater,
faster, and less traumatic had the researchers known
and used more effective methods like those taught in
my FREE Wits' End Method Manual:
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/777witsendmanual.htm

> Alex, and Dr.Pepperberg's research has shown a lot,
> there is no point in streching it too far. Besides she may
> get better results following a more leisurely path.

Agreed that, and of curse, DIFFERENT methods <{}: ~ ( >

> Had Alex lived another 10 or 20 years, he might have
> progressed farther.

Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:

"A WIDE RANGE of PSYCHOSOMATIC or CORTICOVISCERAL
DIS-EASES was surveyed by Wittkower (1965) to demonstrate
the enormous importance of emotional factors in general health."

> M.J.

And the same applies to dogs, M.J. The average lifespan
of dogs on these news groups is LESS THAN ten years
and cancers, seizures, and degenerative DIS-EASES are
so common they're PREDICTABLE and EXXXPECTED.

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller.

"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."

INDEEDY.

AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!

In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >

Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
E-mails:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory DeleteThis @HotMail.Com

Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory DeleteThis @HotMail.Com

TheAmazingPuppyWizard DeleteThis @Mail.Com

http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 20:12:19 +0100, Dave Bugg wrote:

> Peter Hucker wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:04:09 +0100, wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:02:29 GMT, "M.J." wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "max" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> In article ,
>>>>> "M.J." wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What you are describing is a death due to prolonged mental stress.
>>>>> fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic
>>>>> mental stress,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, it is not fine, as the type of stress Alex was subjected to
>>>> is not comparable to anything else that an animal may encounter
>>>> in nature.
>>>>
>>> Neither is talking in human language.
>>
>> They do this of their own accord.
>>
>>>> Usually stress means fear, hunger, uncertainty, noise, many other
>>>> environmental factors. A 30 year rigorous regiment of learning
>>>> to think abstractly, admionistered from the earliest age, is a
>>>> stress factor different than anything a parrot can encounter and
>>>> there is no way to judge how the creature will react to it (that is
>>>> long term effect).
>>>>
>>> Really? Problem solving is something parrots don't encounter
>>> every day?
>>
>> Not 100 times a day.
>
> Correct. They solve exactly 317.25 problems each day. Except on weekends and
> when they go on vacation

What happens to the .25 problem?

--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

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'
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

On Sep 16, 7:48 am,
"Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@HotMail.Com"

wrote:
> HOWEDY M.J.,
>
> "M.J." wrote in message
>
> 3046$Sd4....@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> >
> > wrote in messagenews:1189753631.295023.52360@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> >> HOWEDY M.J.,
>
> >> On Sep 14, 2:14 am, "M.J." wrote:
> >>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
> >>> Have him worked to death by your research? > 8-12 hours a day,
> >>> every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to find out where the
> >>> limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder Alex died so young.
>
> Agreed <{}:* ~ ( >
>
> >> Could be, M.J. The scientific evidence well
> >> documents that liklihood <{}: ~ ( >
>
> >>> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
> >> Not likely, M.J. They're SCIENTISTS!:
>
> I find the level of incompetence demonstrated by university
> trained behaviorists (several of whom I've CITED right here
> on these forums), and professional animal trainers unequaled
> by even the most backward mentally retarded imbecile idiots
> and malevolent animal and human abusing researchers <{}: ~ ( >
>
> Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
> George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
> the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
> students:
>
> "Schmidt (1966) surveyed nearly 100 studies of behaviorally
> induced DIS-EASE in animals CONFIRMING and EXTENDING
> the DATA on PEOPLE. Behaviorally induced DIS-EASES tend
> to fall into two groups;
>
> (1) Hysteriform problems, which INCLUDE HYSTERICAL
> SEIZURES and FORMS of AGGRESSION as well as
> collective panic and epilepsies;
>
> (2) organic modifications, including functional
> difficulties and lesions affecting gastro intestinal,
> cardio vascular, respiratory, sexual, endocrine, skin,
> urinary, and neuro muscular systems."
>
> > If Dr.Irene Pepperberg is not mad she ought to stop,
> > and seriously re-think what she's doing. to these birds,
> > before another suffers a pre-mature death.
>
> What she ought to do is STOP and RE-THINK her methods of
> training. Alex was trained using so called Operant Conditioning,
> the clicker training method, which relies on offering and witholding
> REWARDS till the critter throws random, unthinking, meaningless
> mindless behaviors till the REWARD is released from the human
> Skinner Box <{}: ~ ( >
>
> Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
> George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
> the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
> students:
>
> "The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for
> operant technique simply take the breath
> away. Lovas et al (1966) report a standard
> contingent reward/punishment procedure
> developing imitative speech in two severly
> disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys.
> After twenty-six days the boys are reported
> to have been learning new words with alacrity.
> HOWEver, when REWARDS were moved to
> a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
> immediately deteriorated."
>
> Clicker training INCREASES anXXXIHOWESNESS to
> dangerHOWES levels where aggression, seizures and
> obsessive compulsive disorders occure <{}: ~ ( >
>
> Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
> George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
> the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
> students:
>
> "Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
> reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
> THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
>
> Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
> demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
> that an expected reward not received is experienced
> as a punishment and can produce extensive and
> persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
>
> > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that such
> > a rigorous curriculum that she's subjecting the birds
> > to,
>
> Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
> George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
> the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
> students:
>
> "It is INTERESTING, and SLIGHTLY HORRIFYING,
> to note that the ONLY SCIENTIFIC RELEVANCE
> of the standard six hour school day that I have
> been able to detect in research is that Sawrey
> and Weisz quite by accident found that six hours
> on and six hour off of "EXECUTIVE BEHAVIOR"
> in monkeys was the ONLY TIME STRUCTURE
> that INDUCED DEATH PRODUCING ULCERS."
>
> > must over time be extremely traumatic to the birds
> > and in particular their brains."
>
> INDEEDY!:
>
> "All animals learn best through play," -- Konrad Lorenz.
>
> "...all the highest nervous activity, as it
> manifests itself in the conditional reflex,
> consists of a continual change of these three
> fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition
> and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
>
> "Postitive emotions arising in connection
> with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
> of its pragmatic significance at a given
> moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
> emotions, not outside rewards, are what
> reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
>
> > There is no point in letting another parrot perish
> > for the sake of teaching it to count to seven, or eight,
> > or some other similar achievement.
>
> Alex's achievements would have been much greater,
> faster, and less traumatic had the researchers known
> and used more effective methods like those taught in
> my FREE Wits' End Method Manual:http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/777witsendmanual.htm
>
> > Alex, and Dr.Pepperberg's research has shown a lot,
> > there is no point in streching it too far. Besides she may
> > get better results following a more leisurely path.
>
> Agreed that, and of curse, DIFFERENT methods <{}: ~ ( >
>
> > Had Alex lived another 10 or 20 years, he might have
> > progressed farther.
>
> Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
> George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
> the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
> students:
>
> "A WIDE RANGE of PSYCHOSOMATIC or CORTICOVISCERAL
> DIS-EASES was surveyed by Wittkower (1965) to demonstrate
> the enormous importance of emotional factors in general health."
>
> > M.J.
>
> And the same applies to dogs, M.J. The average lifespan
> of dogs on these news groups is LESS THAN ten years
> and cancers, seizures, and degenerative DIS-EASES are
> so common they're PREDICTABLE and EXXXPECTED.
>
> "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
> -Friedrich Schiller.
>
> "Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."
>
> INDEEDY.
>
> AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
>
> In Love And Light,
> I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
> Jerry Howe,
> The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
> A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
> G-R-A-N-D
> Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey,
> SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
>
> HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
>
> Sincerely,
> Jerry Howe,
> Director of Research,
> Human And Animal Behavior
> Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
> BIOSOUND Scientific,
> Director of Training,
> Wits' End Dog Training
> 1611 24th St
> Orlando, FL 32805
> Phone: 1-407-425-5092
> E-mails:
> Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat....DeleteThis@HotMail.Com
>
> Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat....DeleteThis@HotMail.Com
>
> TheAmazingPuppyWiz....DeleteThis@Mail.Com
>
> http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/

You don't have a clue do you?
Pepperberg did not use the clicker method to teach Alex. She used the
model rival method wich comes close to how
parrots learn in the wild from their peers.
Have you even read her book "the Alex Studies"?

Steve n Misty
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

On Sep 15, 10:56 pm, "M.J." wrote:
> wrote in message
>
>
>
> Blah, blah, blah.
>
> I 've cut out the nonsense from your post, but will reply to your questions
> about preconceived ideas and personal views. Sure I express my personal
> views but these have extensive backing in real empirical data i.e.
> experiences
> I have gathered over a perion of nearly 10 years of being an TAG owner.
>
> My 10 year old TAG (Timneh African Grey) Mbeki whom I have raised
> and handfed since 6 weeks old is a cute playful and intelligent little
> fellow.
> Compared to Alex Mbeki is probalby a great moron as his vocabulary is
> only around 6-7 words. I have subjected Mbeki to learning lessons many
> times and have always noticed that the bird tires immensely after about
> 15-20 minutes of mental exercersise -becomes cranky, and wants to leave,
> go back to the cage, playtop, or whatever.
>
> Sure, slowly and over time he could be made to endure longer and longer
> sessions until he probably would be able to withstand a gruelling 8-12 hour
> working/learning day, but I know this would not be without a risk of
> negative
> long term consequenses.
>
> Mbeki is my pet, and not some ALEX (Avian Learning EXperiment)
> therefore I don't "torment" him past the 10-15 minute that he playfully
> offers me.
>
> M.J.
>

You are clearly ignorant of the methods that Dr Pepperberg used with
Alex as well as the life and relationships he had
with the other lab helpers and fellow parrots.
Alex's sessions were typically half hour or less. He was quite capable
of ending sessions when he had had enough.
Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
working day?
It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
including yours.
Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
age perhaps you can do us all a favor
and repost in 20 years to let us know that he is still alive.
(Of course I hope he is)

Steve n Misty
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

Francis Burton wrote:
> In article ,
> M.J. wrote:
>> For, example, a regular human brain MRI shows anatomy,
>> say a tumor, lesion, etc, (necropsy would show that), but it
>> takes a live PET scan to show if the organ is functioning
>> properly.
>
> And Alex is no longer a live PET. :-(
>
> Francis
"I'll tell you what's wrong with it,my lad, 'E's dead, that's what's
wrong with it!" "No,no, 'E's uh, 'E's restin'" (Kudos to Monty Python)
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

"Steve" wrote in message

| On Sep 15, 10:56 pm, "M.J." wrote:
| > wrote in message
| >
| >
| >
| > Blah, blah, blah.
| >
| > I 've cut out the nonsense from your post, but will reply to your
questions
| > about preconceived ideas and personal views. Sure I express my personal
| > views but these have extensive backing in real empirical data i.e.
| > experiences
| > I have gathered over a perion of nearly 10 years of being an TAG owner.
| >
| > My 10 year old TAG (Timneh African Grey) Mbeki whom I have raised
| > and handfed since 6 weeks old is a cute playful and intelligent little
| > fellow.
| > Compared to Alex Mbeki is probalby a great moron as his vocabulary is
| > only around 6-7 words. I have subjected Mbeki to learning lessons many
| > times and have always noticed that the bird tires immensely after about
| > 15-20 minutes of mental exercersise -becomes cranky, and wants to leave,
| > go back to the cage, playtop, or whatever.
| >
| > Sure, slowly and over time he could be made to endure longer and longer
| > sessions until he probably would be able to withstand a gruelling 8-12
hour
| > working/learning day, but I know this would not be without a risk of
| > negative
| > long term consequenses.
| >
| > Mbeki is my pet, and not some ALEX (Avian Learning EXperiment)
| > therefore I don't "torment" him past the 10-15 minute that he playfully
| > offers me.
| >
| > M.J.
| >
|
| You are clearly ignorant of the methods that Dr Pepperberg used with
| Alex as well as the life and relationships he had
| with the other lab helpers and fellow parrots.
| Alex's sessions were typically half hour or less. He was quite capable
| of ending sessions when he had had enough.
| Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
| working day?
| It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
| including yours.
| Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
| age perhaps you can do us all a favor
| and repost in 20 years to let us know that he is still alive.
| (Of course I hope he is)

Plus aren't we all forgetting that there is a possibility the bird was an
idiot savant of the parrot world and therefore whatever work he had may have
PROLONGED his life? Since folks are throwing around evidence-free
assertions, I just thought I'd toss one in. ; )

sharon

--
"Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you"

-- C. Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

Ocean of Nuance wrote:
> "
> | >
> | > M.J.
> | >
> |
> | You are clearly ignorant of the methods that Dr Pepperberg used with
> | Alex as well as the life and relationships he had
> | with the other lab helpers and fellow parrots.
> | Alex's sessions were typically half hour or less. He was quite capable
> | of ending sessions when he had had enough.
> | Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
> | working day?
> | It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
> | including yours.
> | Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
> | age perhaps you can do us all a favor
> | and repost in 20 years to let us know that he is still alive.
> | (Of course I hope he is)
>
> Plus aren't we all forgetting that there is a possibility the bird was an
> idiot savant of the parrot world and therefore whatever work he had may have
> PROLONGED his life? Since folks are throwing around evidence-free
> assertions, I just thought I'd toss one in. ; )
>
> sharon
>
While the larger parrot species may live between 50 and 75-80 years, a
whole host of things such as stress factors, disease and poor diet can
take them out at an early age. Birds are great at hiding illness as a
sick looking bird= a dead bird in the wild. By the time a bird looks
ill, it is often too late to save its life. Birds fed an extruded diet
and fruits and veggies that also tend to get regular veterinary exams
tend to live longer than those that are fed an all seed diet. Likewise
birds that are kept solitary without interaction will often die early or
develop stereotypical behavior such as self mutilation and
plucking..Alex was afforded the best of care, a great diet and regular
veterinary exams, as well as an interesting interactive environment to
live in. Many cage birds don't live as long as Alex did, so to say that
he died from stress and overwork may be a fallacy. It may have just been
his time to go..
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

"Steve" wrote in message


> Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
> working day?


I've cut out the nonsense. If you were to read the thread from its
beginning
and its associated links, not just jump in at will, on bout of emotion, you
would have read that Dr.Pepperberg herself states Alex had 8-12 hour
working days (his entire life). No one here is so misguided to even suspect
these could be marathon 8-12 hour sessions, of course they were batches,
and multiple bursts of shorter intervals of mental exercise.

> Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
> age perhaps you can do us all a favor and repost in 20 years to let us
> know that he is still alive.


Perhaps you should do us all a favour and re-think your participation in
this thread. You're contribution seems shallow (example: irrelevancy of
Mbeki's age as an argument), and frankly you are neither entertaining nor
educational, nor posing any relevant questions.

> (Of course I hope he is)

Of course, that's why the confirmation.

M.J.
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

"Grizzly" wrote in message


> Alex was afforded the best of care, a great diet and regular veterinary
> exams, as well as an interesting interactive environment to live in. Many
> cage birds don't live as long as Alex did, so to say that he died from
> stress and overwork may be a fallacy. It may have just been his time to
> go..


Well, you certainly make a point, and if there was a cause of
death identified there would be no speculation. Neither people,
nor birds die prematurely without a reason. Perhaps Alexes
biological age was accelerated through years of unnaturaly
elevated brain metabolism that he simply died of old age at 31?
Who knows? It's a possibility actually my main contention.

M.J.
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

"Steve" wrote in message


> It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
> including yours.

You just assume that mental effort is as easy and
natural to a parrots brain as it is to a human brain.

8-12 hours a day of hard mental exercise for an average
human could be associated with taking an extremely heavy
course load at a most demanding university. I am certain
the graduate researchers, students, who were training
ALEX, at Brandeis Univ., were themselves on much much
less demanding academic schedules.

Well, for a parrot's brain who knows what 8-12 hours
of mental work is equivalent to.

I wish they do some advanced studies on Alexes
brain cells, they just may show extreme premature
aging.

M.J.
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

"M.J." wrote in message

| "Grizzly" wrote in message
|
|
| > Alex was afforded the best of care, a great diet and regular veterinary
| > exams, as well as an interesting interactive environment to live in.
Many
| > cage birds don't live as long as Alex did, so to say that he died from
| > stress and overwork may be a fallacy. It may have just been his time to
| > go..
|
|
| Well, you certainly make a point, and if there was a cause of
| death identified there would be no speculation. Neither people,
| nor birds die prematurely without a reason. Perhaps Alexes
| biological age was accelerated through years of unnaturaly
| elevated brain metabolism that he simply died of old age at 31?
| Who knows? It's a possibility actually my main contention.

And if you are correct, who is to say whether that shorter life is more
fulfilling, more examined, more intellectually stimulating, than a longer,
less fulfilling, less examined, more religious life? Sounds like a
reasonable trade-off to me.

sharon

--
"Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you"

-- C. Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death? 

"Ocean of Nuance" wrote in message


> "M.J." wrote in message
>
> | "Grizzly" wrote in message
> |
> |
> | > Alex was afforded the best of care, a great diet and regular
> veterinary
> | > exams, as well as an interesting interactive environment to live in.
> Many
> | > cage birds don't live as long as Alex did, so to say that he died from
> | > stress and overwork may be a fallacy. It may have just been his time
> to
> | > go..
> |
> |
> | Well, you certainly make a point, and if there was a cause of
> | death identified there would be no speculation. Neither people,
> | nor birds die prematurely without a reason. Perhaps Alexes
> | biological age was accelerated through years of unnaturaly
> | elevated brain metabolism that he simply died of old age at 31?
> | Who knows? It's a possibility actually my main contention.
>
> And if you are correct, who is to say whether that shorter life is more
> fulfilling, more examined, more intellectually stimulating, than a longer,
> less fulfilling, less examined, more religious life? Sounds like a
> reasonable trade-off to me.


From a moral standpoint this a very tough question as we
humans are just not qualified to decide such matters for a
different species, or even person from our species.

Generally speaking, a life in the wild with the ability to procreate
is considered "perfect" with all its associated risks, as this is
what creatures are adapted to over millions of years of evolution.

Who said a life of a human eunuch isn't tremendously fullfiling,
it is much less stressful, lower testosterone levels translate into
less tension, adversarial competition, no worry associated
with raising and providing for offspring etc. Does it mean
getting castrated is the way to go for a male? :))))
I personally don't think so.

M.J.


> sharon
>
> --
> "Lights will guide you home
> And ignite your bones
> And I will try to fix you"
>
> -- C. Martin
>
 >> Stay informed about: Parrot worked to death?